Grief Club: The Podcast with Addison Brasil
Inspired by his bestselling book, First Year of Grief Club: A Gift From A Friend Who Gets It, Addison Brasil uses the experiments and offerings as a launching point for deeper conversations with friends and experts. Equal parts "honour the journey" and "find the funny," this is for real people navigating real-life grief. You in? Stay tuned for all things mental health, resilience, comedy, mindset, and life after-loss ideas. (mygriefclub.com)
This podcast is for you if you if you have ever searched: How to deal with grief? Where can I get grief support? What are the 5 stages of grief and are they real? How does grief affect mental health?How do I cope with grief and loss? What are some common myths about grief and how can I debunk them? How long does it take to recover from grief What are some healthy ways to deal with grief? How can I support someone who is grieving? What is complicated grief and how is it different from normal grief? What are the physical symptoms of grief and how can I manage them? How can I find a grief support group or counselor? Why does grief hurt so bad?
Grief Club: The Podcast with Addison Brasil
Finding Community to Unravel the Complexities of Grief and Trauma with Whats Your Grief (Litsa Williams)
When we least expect it, grief and trauma can completely upend our lives. Join me for a raw and powerful conversation with Litsa Williams, a compassionate guide in the grief community, as she shares her own grief journey and the importance of understanding trauma and grief. We explore how Litsa's childhood losses shaped her, the impact of her father's death when she was 18, and how grieving her sister's heroin addiction taught her that one can grieve someone who is still alive.
Litsa offers her valuable insights on the differences between traditional grief support and trauma-specific support, as we delve into the complexities of trauma and unexpected loss. We also discuss the power of creative expression in processing emotions, the importance of supportive grief communities, and how even the tiniest joke can provide comfort during difficult times.
Lastly, we explore self-care and coping with overwhelm in the face of grief. Discover the importance of granting ourselves permission to switch gears and take a break when emotions become too intense. Learn from Litsa's own experiences with meditation and finding balance during moments of turmoil. Tune in for this heartfelt and insightful conversation with Litsa Williams, and learn how understanding trauma and grief can help us build self-compassion and navigate life's challenges.
Whats Your Grief's mission is to promote grief education, exploration, and expression in both practical and creative ways. We achieve this mission by providing:
- Resources related to understanding and coping with grief and loss
- Guidance on how to help a grieving friend or family member
- Online courses about grief and supporting someone who’s grieving
- Resources, education, and training for grief counselors, grief volunteers, and other professionals working in fields related to grief and loss.
- A podcast about grief
- A supportive community
This week's episode is inspired by Week 29 in First Year of Grief Club about community and pro-social shame.
Where Can I find more of Litsa/ Whats Your Grief?
IG: @whatsyourgrief
www.whatsyourgrief.com
Hosted By: Addison Brasil
Author of First Year Of Grief Club: A Gift From A Friend Who Gets It
www.mygriefclub.com
@sharemygriefclub
@addisonbrasil
I'm Addison, brazil. Grief Club The Podcast starts now. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Grief Club The Podcast, where I take the parts of my book First Year of Grief Club A Gift from a Friend Who Gets It and use them as launching points for deeper conversations with experts and friends. Today we are very lucky to have a huge support in the grief community with us. Please welcome Lisa Williams to the show. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you are here. So in Grief Club tradition, the first thing we do is kind of drop into the space, take a deep breath and I'm going to ask you in one word right now how are you feeling physically?
Speaker 2:Hmm, one word, i mean probably the word that is always true for me unfocused. I have ADHD, so I'm almost at every moment like 27 different directions, and that's where I am right now. I feel that.
Speaker 1:Let me say tired, yeah. And one word how are you feeling emotionally?
Speaker 2:Oh, emotionally connected. Yeah, i've had a lot of good connection with people this week and so I've just been feeling emotionally really kind of in a connected place.
Speaker 1:Love that, let me say hopeful. And lastly, how are you feeling mentally?
Speaker 2:Mentally unfocused really is tricky because it kind of goes into both, doesn't it? But I'm going to say mentally pretty stimulated. I've had a pretty. I've done a lot of stuff today. So yeah, let me say focused.
Speaker 1:So let's hop in. The first thing I always like to do is just give you a few minutes to kind of honor your journey openly, just letting us know who you are and what happened to get you to where you are today and how you show up in the world, and I'll let you explain a little bit of what you've been working on and all that, so I will hand it to you. Let's get to know, lisa.
Speaker 2:Sure, so I, you know, i'm one of those people who I think grief has been parts of my life in a different way since a really young age. I think it'll be the part of my grief story that people who are familiar with what's your grief know best starts when I was 18. My dad died when I was 18 and that was a very formative loss, i guess, in a lot of ways in terms of where, how grief impacted my family and then where things turned. I think grief was a big part of my family before that. My parents had a baby that was stillborn when I was four and were, you know, really amazing open parents who you know I remember well talking to that, you know when that happened and that they didn't shy away from that. They didn't have that attitude of like you keep kids away from that. They I mean they couldn't have. Obviously my mom had been pregnant. I was excited, you know, for a brother who was coming. So it's not like they could have hidden it from me, but they definitely made it part of the conversation. Even then we always went to his grave in the cemetery and from when I was really young, and so I think that for me was. You know, grief was a fairly was a fairly comfortable thing to talk about from early on in my family.
Speaker 2:And when I was seven, my, my very best friend, who was the son of my mom's best friend his, so my mom's best friend died, so my best friend's mom And that was again this other huge, really significant loss. That again I look back now, especially now being in the grief space and knowing how differently are, how many different ways there are to experience grief and childhood, and how families handle it and what happens, the culture around grief, i come to appreciate even more what a good job my parents did in in different ways Again at that. They were. They were really, they were really direct, they had really good, clear conversations. That you know. I knew that she was going to die. I went to the funeral and it was, you know, talking about that loss was, was huge. And then, even as we got a little bit older, my best friend's dad got remarried when we were nine, which felt felt like devastating all over again And my family did a really good job of sort of talking about all of the stuff that that comes with that And so I had all those things that had happened before my dad died, but when my dad died it was obviously sort of a different level of loss for me personally in this very personal way.
Speaker 2:And I was 18 and you know that's a weird age. In general, i think you're really kind of in that place where you're an adult sort of and you're still sort of in your childhood space. I was, i had just finished my freshman year in college, so it you know that was was where I was, and after my dad's death, my, i think a huge thing that has affected what's your grief and where where things went, is that my sister who was, who was about six years younger than me, within a very short period, probably within a year or a year and a half after my dad's death, she developed a really severe heroin addiction And that really kind of devastated our family in this completely different way And I became really tuned in to how you can grieve someone who's still alive and how there are so many different types of loss beyond bereavement And wow, this like it really makes me start to sound like a really like griefy person, as I'll just I'll end up then the last thing that I think really ended up shaping where I am now. So when I was, when I was 26, my sister's partner who was like a member of our family, who had lived with our family for a while and things he died of an overdose And that had obviously a devastating impact on my sister but on my entire family as well. And also was this way where I saw how not only was the some of the challenges of grieving substance related deaths different, but just how people, how other people, dealt with it. And this was a long time ago. I mean, this was, you know, in the early days of at least white middle class people talking about the opioid epidemic and the way that it shifted, and so you know, this was in the mid 2000s and there wasn't nearly as much support and awareness around addiction within families, around substance related death, and you know all of that.
Speaker 2:So ultimately, when I ended up later, i didn't. I didn't ever have a moment where I thought, oh yeah, i'm going to go into grief. I didn't. I tried therapy and support groups and they were like not for me. I was not somebody who was like so moved by the grief support that I received that I decided I wanted to get into this space.
Speaker 2:I took kind of a winding road around to ending up in the work I'm in now, but ultimately started working for an organization where I was working with families who were really experiencing like in the worst moment, traumatic and unexpected loss. I would meet families at the hospital, usually be in the meeting with the doctor, unfortunately letting them know that the person in their life had died, and were based in Baltimore, and a lot of those deaths were homicide, suicide, overdose, but then also accidents, strokes, occasionally heart attacks, things like that. So you know it was a range. And then we were working with folks for two years, sometimes more, after that. So it gave this really interesting, i guess, way of connecting with grief support, because I wasn't in a role where people were seeking out the support I was assigned to them at the hospital And so I had this range of some people who were like, yes, i want the counseling, i want the groups, i want everything. And then there were other people who were like no, absolutely not. Like no, no, and so which? I really understood those people, because that was sort of me in my own grief. And so that's where I met Eleanor, the co-founder of What's Your Grief, and that's where we sort of started having these conversations about what's out there for people who don't want counseling and support groups, what's available online. Like so, many people wanted to stuff online. This was back in the late 2000s, i guess. Eleanor and I met there in 2009.
Speaker 2:The online landscape looked very different then when it comes to grief, and so we were really struggled And ultimately we complained for a few years And then finally we're like, well, what can we do about this? And blogs were still huge. So we started blogging And really it was just a grief blog that turned into what's your grief. Eventually, that turned into what it is now. It's grown in so many ways, but we've always sort of said our tagline has always been grief support for the rest of us, because it is sort of this space to try to fill these gaps. We saw for maybe what wasn't already there in the grief support space. So that's the very long answer to me.
Speaker 1:I love it. I'm so glad you gave us the long answer And the launching point of this episode, the week in the book, is about pro-social shame and community. So it couldn't be more perfect because I think sometimes as far as you get it's just Googling. You know, grief support And, like you said, it comes up with the things that don't always work for all of us And it's so funny that, as you say, that too, I've obviously been in situations in my life And my listeners are no stranger to the grief Olympics, So don't worry, You did overwhelm them. I was like you're a fellow Olympian, You know.
Speaker 1:I remember it's funny that you said that the both times with my dad died by suicide and then my friend in a traumatic accident And the person who came to speak to me in the hospital at that time, like the trauma specialist, the grief informed trauma specialist, it's just so funny that, as you were saying that I cannot put a face, I couldn't ID that person And they were so integral at that moment. But you're just so in shock And so I loved when you said I think I might have had the opportunity with my father back in Canada, but I don't think here in LA had that opportunity to then continue to meet with that person that sort of held you and met you at that really sort of breaking down what the world means to you in that moment, Like it's really right there. But it's so interesting because, even as you said it, I got this weird memory And I can remember where my mom was sitting in the room, But the lovely woman who was speaking to me in the hospital I can't remember her face, the sound of her voice. I just remember she was explaining to me the one thing that I didn't want anyone to explain to me in that moment. So it's like what an interesting and beautiful position to be in terms of getting to see grief also be born in people, Because it's the moment of conception, let's call it of having to navigate and live with loss that you obviously didn't want to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It's such a. I worked in that job for eight years And I always say to people there's almost nothing I can imagine like it, because you truly realize that you're just sitting with people on what will probably be the or one of the worst days of their life And to let you into that space not that they've invited you in per se, but oftentimes you are the person who is there in that space And it's an incredible thing to be part of that with families and to be able to sit with it, and you truly get so often in the grief space. You hear all this, don't try to fix it, don't try to fix it, but there is no moment more, i think, than in that moment, where you just know there is nothing in this moment that we can do other than be there and be present and allow people to know that they're not alone in what comes next from here.
Speaker 2:But other than that, there's no magic words, there's no comfort, there's no thing that can make that moment change the trajectory of their grief. I think there's just being able to be present with people because, like you say, so many people it's a blur, like they don't remember. Half of the time you're in that same conversation, repeating things again and again, because one of our brain's self-protective mechanisms is to shut off and just say I'm not going to hear this, and then suddenly people will need you to repeat things again and again because they just we can't process it all. And yeah, it was a really, really interesting job that I'm really grateful I had And I know, and that Eleanor and I both had, i know, shape so much of what we do with what's your grief.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right. I'm so excited, but I have to ask you the question that I ask everybody If a child walked up to you and they didn't know what the word grief meant and they asked you what's grief mean, how would you explain it to them?
Speaker 2:I would say that grief is learning to live in the world after you've lost something so important to you.
Speaker 1:I love that a learning process. I really do love that.
Speaker 3:Hey, grief Club, it's Justin Michael Williams, and for those of you who wanted to meditate or learn to meditate, i just wanted to leave this message to let you know that you're going to be able to do it. I just wanted to leave you this message to let you know that I have a free meditation album out that you can access on Spotify, apple Music and anywhere. There are 10 tracks for you to enjoy about feeling your feelings, getting shit done and taking action in your life. You can find it at MeditationForThePeoplecom. I'll see you in the next video. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:I do want to jump in further on sort of this idea of this searching for a community aspect with because you seem to have so much experience in it. but like unexpected and traumatic loss, we actually haven't talked about that much on this podcast and I'm generally interviewing, so I'm not talking about mine that much, unless it's, like you know, a tidbit that really works or will support the conversation at the time. But I'd love to hear just more of what you offer to people and maybe what your take is on when there's that extra element of something traumatic and very unexpected happening on top of, you know, just losing somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that is helpful is when because trauma is so complex, right, that we can all experience something potentially traumatic, and that doesn't necessarily mean that we are traumatized or we develop post-traumatic stress.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I think that it can get really muddy for people to understand, but one of the things for me that's always been really important in helping people think about where they are and what support they need, what's going to help them is that certain types of traditional grief support, if there is, or if there are components of trauma, of real clinical trauma going on. the stuff that we do for grief and that can help to support people grieving sometimes is really inaccessible if we haven't worked on the trauma stuff first. And so I think understanding that trauma like part of the core piece of trauma is that something has happened to us that has destabilized everything so much that we are living in a place of fear. right, the world no longer seems safe to us, and that shows up in so many different ways. But one of the things that, of course, i think is probably one of the signs of trauma people know about are flashbacks and nightmares.
Speaker 2:People think of things like that oftentimes, and I think that's one where we can really see how some of the traditional grief support might not work. if I'm in a place where every time I think about the person who died, all I can think about is the scene of the accident or how I found them. Even if you didn't, even if you didn't see them, we can experience, when we, the way trauma can show up for us. even if you read a police report or somebody described something to you, it can still get become the thing that gets stuck in our brains and we replay it over and over.
Speaker 2:So now, all of a sudden, in this grief space where we're talking about how do we connect to continued bonds and memories and how do we create legacy, and that's just not going to work If I every time I think about the person I'm, replaying things that are so distressing to me, if I'm also realizing that, you know, my own safety in the world my own, the way I perceive my support system has been jeopardized. So if I feel like no one can understand what I am going through and no one in the world is safe any longer, maybe you know, for all of the reasons that that can come up, we know that community and connection is such an important part of how we grieve and the things that in grief support we're often trying to promote. But if I haven't found ways to really work on some of that trauma piece that's going to allow me to feel a sense of safety, to reach out in ways to other people that are going to feel okay, for me thrusting it in to kind of some of the things that might happen with grief just aren't going to work, and so we really just encourage people to think about those things, think about the way that it might be showing up in ways where traditional grief support stuff. You're like how could I ever do that when all these devastating images come up in my mind? Or you know, i can't even imagine that sometimes, especially if that your loss was a potentially traumatizing loss if there was violence, if it was unexpected, if you feel like it could have been prevented if it was in the media. I mean there's so many things that statistically increase the likelihood that something could be potentially traumatic. We always say just go and talk to somebody you know, get screened for some of that, see if maybe some trauma treatment is going to be really helpful for you before you start diving into some of these or alongside of diving into some of this meaning making and memory making and kind of telling your story. So I think that's a really important piece of trauma.
Speaker 2:There's just so much to unexpected deaths where we're just absorbing things, where when death is anticipated, there's no comparison. It's not like one is easier or harder than the other, they're just different. But one of the things that happens is we just have to take a lot more time sometimes to be absorbing the shock that that person is gone. Our brain hasn't done some of the practicing that it tries to do an anticipatory grief of imagining okay, how will I deal with this when he's not here, or what will I do about that? You know we haven't had any of that And so sometimes we're on a different timeline than other people who have had anticipated deaths And it feels like maybe they're they're ready to do certain things in terms of legacy and connection much more quickly than we might be if we're still playing some of that catch up with unexpected loss. So you know, those are just a quick, a few quick things, but I always like that.
Speaker 2:Those are, i think, the ones from working with people with unexpected losses.
Speaker 2:I think that's those are some of the things that I always try to remind people And that those and that trauma really is a space where getting professional support is really important. You know, grief is a normal and natural human response to loss. It's not a pathology, it's not a problem to solve, as I'm sure all your listeners know well. It is this experience of living our lives after a loss And so many people can do that without professional support. You know they're able to navigate that with just the support of friends and family, with figuring out memories and connections, and you know it doesn't necessarily need that huge part of what we do on. What's your grief is that we give all these creative tools. We do things for writing and photography and connecting with other people and you know learning about grief in ways that can really help And that can really work. But if trauma is a component, that's when we're like talking to a therapist. You know, i know it can be a big leap for people, but it really is so, so important in the cases of trauma, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think just by having this conversation today, you know you're proving in itself that this was community that I didn't have And I think community and connection are the only reason I'm here, through my own suicidality and through my own losses. However, when I was in the face of that capital T trauma specifically after finding my father and also being there for my friends that there was this isolation to that that I almost felt like I didn't have access to my own community. So just being able to hear something like this, i know, would have meant so much. And as you're talking, i'm like nodding ferociously because it's sort of like all of those things were a part of that trauma. And I would often try to help explain to people because with my brother's death, like you said, it was cancer. He had cancer for four years. Things were explained to me, like you know, it was just very different And sometimes I even weirdly quoted as saying it was a beautiful death because we sort of knew what was happening. It was a sunny day, 12 of us gathered around him and you know we were there, whereas these other ones felt more like where were you when Kennedy got shot?
Speaker 1:moments Like what do you mean? Like what's going on, sort of thing, and so I would try to explain to people that I was nowhere near where the rituals of their support there when they were offered to me. I was still dealing with like the loss of a human life. That was traumatic after my father for a long time, before it became anything about my dad and me and not having my dad anymore. You know, and I don't think that gets talked about that much It's a long time out. And similarly with my friend, because I was also injured so badly, i had to be in survival mode of myself, like learning how to walk and getting through my own brain injury, and it was so far down the road where I had this moment where I just went, oh my God, she's not here. You know, so far away And it felt so foreign and so isolating And there wasn't really community around those moments of you know, not only when you're in the trauma and obviously that's when we're leaning on a professional help the most But also people just recognizing that it really wasn't something, that that was there for me. So I'm so glad if, if you're hearing this and you're going, yeah, i feel like I don't even have access to sort of like the things I'm reading in grief books or the things they're talking about at grief support group And there was that unexpected element or that traumatic element you know years, and I was going to actually bring up today because we're so close to Father's Day and we both lost our fathers and the club I hate to be in.
Speaker 1:But here we are And I found, weirdly, this Father's Day this past Sunday where are we at 2012? So 11 years later, was this this weirdly emotionally raw day that I just did not think I was going to be having 12 years later? And and I found myself even saying Addison, you know this, you know this like almost getting irritated with myself. I'm like you know, you know this, and it's a lot of what we're saying where it takes so long to heal from that trauma, where I'm only just having access to a normal day with real life grief by something that's meant to trigger just grief, not trauma, not finally, and sitting in that and being with that. So I just really appreciate you sort of going through all of that with us and talking about that Because, again, the only time we've probably ever heard it is when we're in that hospital room and we can't hear anything because we're in shock, you know, and someone's explaining it the first time. So I think knowing a community exists when you're dealing with trauma is essential as well, even if you're leaning more on the professional help. But hearing conversations like this, where it's like, whoa, they felt completely removed, because it kind of feels like Do I not care about the person? Why don't I have those grief feelings yet, you know like, and it's not that at all, it's like you're literally dealing with witnessing the traumatic death or trying to. And my sister I'm sure we'll listen to this We always went back and forth out of what was harder, because she had to imagine everything.
Speaker 1:I told her that I saw and I knew what I saw and what it was true. So my flashbacks were memories, you know, and hers were things she was making up and when she was sleeping and unconsciously, and I always kind of was like wondering, i'm like I don't know, that might be worse, because she doesn't know, because everything's a nightmare for her. She's making up all of it, you know, whereas for me it was like that's not what happened on that day, you know, or that is what happened And I'm having a flashback or whatever it was, but it's very interesting to hear that, that it can also affect people so deeply, even if they just, like you said, read about it or hear about it, or you know, yeah, and I think that the self-compassion, like that ability that comes through learning about trauma and learning about grief, to be able to understand what you're experiencing, to give yourself grace and compassion around it, no matter how many years it's been that you know, these things show up for us.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that's really interesting about some trauma research is that when people don't understand their trauma responses, our trauma responses, and they fear them I mean we've they're spearing the events, the trauma, the lack of safety. But then there's fearing our own experience. There's fearing what's happening to us, like being scared of the thoughts we're having and the emotions and the you know, the isolation, the suicide, all the things that can happen. Interestingly, that well, not interestingly, probably unsurprisingly right Like that exacerbates trauma symptoms. It makes it harder to cope.
Speaker 2:And in the grief research, when we have false expectations about grief, like if we believe it's going to unfold, like the five stages, or we think that after a certain amount of time that it's going to have dissipated or whatever, that also predicts that we will have a harder time adjusting to our grief after we've lost somebody.
Speaker 2:And so I think, like when you put those two things together and you do have people who are experiencing trauma and sometimes going, and why am I not even remembering the person?
Speaker 2:because I'm so wrapped up, like, why doesn't my grief look right And why is my trauma so devastating? Because I think, even when we know theoretically that trauma exists, when you're experiencing it yourself it's a completely different ball game, And so I think you know those two things together can be really really hard to build self compassion and to say, wait, no, this is of course I'm having a trauma response. I went through this traumatic experience and my body and my brain are just trying to regain safety in the world. And you know, of course, after this many years, it's still hard, sometimes on Father's Day, because it's hard and because I had all these other things that were part of the circumstances for me, and so I think sometimes doing that's why I think we believe in psychoeducation so much is because when we give people information, sometimes it helps us to be more compassionate with ourselves and know that like this is, yeah, god, it's awful, but this is how it goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And just being able to hear that and even if someone's heard it before, as I'm listening to all of this nodding, you know it's like I need all these reminders once again this week for the 1,000th time in the row. And that's one of my favorite things about doing the show and sitting in this seat is I had so much resistance to hopping on today because I did have that Rough Father's Day and I just like, didn't know if I like, i just didn't want to. And then there's the other part of me that just goes yeah, but what happens every time you do? you know what happens when you do show up to, in this case, the community I built, you know it's like, you know it's, and even there there's that resistance to identifying with it and sitting in it, even though it is a safe space And it is where conversations that make sense, like this, can happen. And you know, we can see.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes there can be a little bit of a resistance to, you know, seeing ourselves and others and identifying with our grief anymore and wanting it all to go away. And like, like you said it a few times, like I've literally in big bold letters on the back of my book. It says grief is not something you fix, it's something you honor. And I every week go. But what if we could fix it this week? Like what if we could?
Speaker 2:Wouldn't that be good to know the next Father's Day was going to be easier, exactly.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like it's that, that like you're saying that loving part of you that has to go, yeah, that's a good one. Like almost when a kid's trying out jokes for the first time and they're not funny but you're, like, you know, like okay, well, yeah, that's the idea of a joke. You're getting there, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I thank you for reminding us to be gentle, especially. you know and this reminder for me too it's like you said, it's not been 12 years, it's been all the years of processing trauma and then probably a few years of you know just where I have access to grief, just grief, feelings and that sort of loss. So that's that's incredibly helpful to know. I'm curious what, when you say grief support for the rest of us, what are some of your favorites of what that means in terms of what you guys have been able to provide or what's really resonating with people outside of? you know, like you said, the grief group counseling that most people are offered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I think probably the thing that we've been doing the longest and have a real soft spot for because it was part of what Eleanor and I connected over was using photography as a tool for grief, and so very early on, we started offering exploring grief through photography classes, online classes and you know classes together about we. One of the things that we were really interested in was just things that don't involve words. You know that don't necessarily involve having to find language for our loss and our loss experiences. I think there is sometimes, there are many moments in our grief that we can't find the words for, and the history of mental health has unfortunately privileged the idea of talking, and that's because Freud was like we've got to, you've got to express it, you've got to express it, you've got to put it all into words, but there's no research that actually shows that. That's true, we can't avoid, so that's important, but we, as long as we're finding ways to access and connect with and process our experiences and emotions, there is nothing that shows that we have to say them out loud, and so I think that that, for us, has been really important and being able to say, if talking works for you, like please do it. And I mean now I'm a huge believe. I've I mean, i've always been a belief in therapy. I love therapy and my therapist now. I think therapy is so valuable And I also know that when we're talking about things that aren't in themselves of themselves pathologies.
Speaker 2:You know, when we're talking about something like grief, there's so many other ways photography, so many people talk about just going into the world and like, after a loss, seeing grief everywhere, just like seeing it in nature, seeing it walking down the street, just seeing the world differently or seeing something that's that captures one's internal experience, and we really, you know, love that ourselves. And so that was where we started and it was interesting that we started talking about it And then other people were like, yes, me too, or yeah, i'm really interested in that, and so that kind of grew its own space of being able to help people tap into that. We have other creative expression projects that we really like to. We have a grief recipes where people can share like they're how they cook, to connect with people who died, and like the you know recipe and writing.
Speaker 2:But I think the other big thing that we really do is we've tried to create like our hub community, that kind of like our membership community that people can join, aside from our website, which is that just hundreds of articles and podcasts and all that. It's a space where people sometimes, i think, are kind of confused. They're like, well, what do you if it's not a support group, like what, what? what goes on there? And we really try to have it to be a place that is everything. Like you can join that space and you can just watch webinars because you just like to learn about grief, and you don't have to be on camera and you don't have to identify, you don't have to do anything at all, just because you want to learn.
Speaker 2:And then we have places for people who are just looking for kind of a little accountability for like the things in life that are hard after loss. So, like on Sundays, we just get together and we have I call it getting things done together And we get on zoom and it's a two, it's two hour block and we spend the first five minutes where everybody just says what are you doing for the next two hours? And sometimes it's like laundry or meal prep or dealing with a state, stuff I haven't dealt with, or I'm actually going to journal, because I've been talking about journaling all week but I never actually follow through with it And you know, everybody just kind of keeps each other accountable and then goes off in their own spaces and does their own thing. We check in halfway through, check in at the end, but we don't talk about nobody has to talk about their feelings, nobody has to talk about grief, but it's just like let's come and do the things that are just harder, because grief makes life harder.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. So, so, so much. That's that is born of somebody who gets it, but those are friends who get it. It's we have this term in like my family and my friends. We call them like.
Speaker 1:I need a pocket pal today, which is sort of like I don't want to talk about it, but I want someone to come with me to do all my errands, which is like my friends know exactly what that means like I really need a pocket pal, like and I, you know, i just had it with some stuff I had to do with my house here, you know, and it was just like, literally, like it is just so much harder and if somebody will just accompany you through the things that need to get done, but that it's not like a hindrance or you don't have to explain why or talk about why, but you just like need to need that accountability and that pocket pal, i think that's so wonderful and also can be something that can be supportive, like you said, of people who are more in that traumatic zone as well, because you're not, you know, hashing it out and trying to solve anything in these, in these sort of pedestrian group sessions.
Speaker 2:That can happen as well, you know and I think that's just to take on other people's stuff.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that gets underestimated about support groups. Groups are wonderful and for some people they are just like like they're life changing, they're perfect. But it also means you have to be in a place to be able to hear other people's stories, and that is hard, like oftentimes in grief and in trauma, we're just trying to figure out how to live with our own story and now having to take on other people's stories, we're not always ready for that, and so spaces that are like you can show up. You can know that everybody here knows, right, we're all grieving, we all know that. We all know like life is really hard right now And we don't have to, in this space, talk about why we don't have to share our own stuff or take on anybody else's, but we can still be here for a different kind of support, and I think that's something that's really important to us. That is hard to find in that hard to find that's the grief dichotomy.
Speaker 1:I feel like if you feel that way that you can't be a container for somebody else, it's probably on a day where you need a container.
Speaker 1:It's such a hard stress to be like I need to show up and I want to share, get whatever type of support, but I cannot take on any more. And there are days and people don't talk about this a lot because it's very like anti, you know, mental health guru but there are days and that was a big peer support advocate, obviously, and still am but there are days, yeah, where you're like I cannot listen to someone else. I like I'm too emulated to know that you're in this amount of pain, like the only thing I like about this right now is I think I'm the only one in some ways, you know, like I just in some ways it's so freeing and it's so beautiful and it's like. But there are days where you go, i cannot sit in someone else's grief. I can barely stand in my own today and that's just a very real thing that it doesn't feel like safe to say in many spaces.
Speaker 2:And I'm so glad that we're just like stumbling into mentioning that because I think hearing that will change things for a lot of people, you know it's so important to like know our own boundaries with that sort of thing, because other we're not doing a service for anybody if we can't know ourselves that. Of course there are times where we're going to be tapped out where, like we're just not going to be able to, and that's okay, like that's not a failure. Again, that is just being a human who has limitations in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's real and I'm working out right now too, because it's it's hard. No matter where you are socially, people you know are interested in our friends kind of want to brag and be like why doesn't wrote a book about grief? and I kind of like like kick them under the table because I'm like I will now be listening to the last three people that this person lost for the rest of this dinner and and I just left recording a podcast on both sides of it and writing my second book, like I I didn't come to West Hollywood to to talk about death.
Speaker 1:You know, it's a beautiful thing that it connects us and like so, finding that balance, and I've definitely been working on on those boundaries as well, as I'm sure as everyone else is sitting there right now going yeah, okay, i could. I could be a little bit more vocal with that. Last question on this. I haven't one of those days where the grief is piling up. I mean because you just digested so much knowledge and you know resources and experiential What when you know that's hitting like that? what is your next? five minutes to an hour? look like, like what is the immediate? how do you take care of yourself when it's when you're going into sort of overwhelm, you know, in the weeds of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's what I do that is not my ideal, which is I start like scrolling endlessly on Instagram, which is the worst. It's what I don't recommend, but it's like the easy thing And I think this is for so many like there's so many things right. It's like why it would be easier to just like grab a beer or scroll on Instagram, like those things that are like instant. I am as guilty as the next person of that being my go-to, because I know it's like what just gets my brain to kind of check out. So usually what I try to do in like in that moment, especially on my phone, i will, first and foremost, i love Headspace, the app Headspace, so I'll be like all right, headspace meditation, that is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna put something on. It can be short And I'm a big believer in whatever it is that my brain wants to do, whether that's like scroll endlessly on Instagram or just do something that checks my brain out Rarely when I'm pivoting to let me listen to a meditation, am I like thinking, okay, i have to definitely shift gears completely.
Speaker 2:I'm like, and then permission that, once I've done the meditation, if I wanna scroll on Instagram or check out and binge television, that's okay. But usually, once you've actually gotten yourself in a place of giving that, for me at least, if I can like break myself from the thing that wants to just zone my brain out, i will listen to that meditation. And then I'm usually like, okay, let me go outside. And then like once I can do that and go outside, for me that's the huge thing is just to like get that speed and not put any pressure. This is the luxury of self-employment.
Speaker 2:It doesn't always work on days that I have certain things that are scheduled, but a lot of my days I do a combination of things that are self-scheduled and I give myself permission to regroup for the rest of the day and to say, wait, if I've been in overload because I've been going through reading and responding to so many comments or I've been doing stuff that really has me has been tapped into something about my own grief, that has been a lot. I'm like I give myself permission to shift gears for the day And I, you know there's no. Just because I said this is what I was gonna do today does not mean this is what I'm gonna actually end up doing. I think it's probably a little easier for me than some people because, i said in the beginning, i do have ADHD and so I've spent a lot of my life learning how to work in the times that it works for my brain and know that planning what a day looks like doesn't actually always end up being what the day looks like Like that's been a huge thing for me and just learning to work with my own brain my whole life.
Speaker 2:But it really is something that I try to bring in. When I know that I'm overloaded or overwhelmed or just feeling like I need that space is to give myself permission to say forget about what I thought today was gonna look like.
Speaker 1:I'm just gonna do whatever I need to get through And how odd and beautiful that, as you're saying that sirens go in the background, because it's a perfect metaphor and example. We don't know what's about to trigger us or not trigger us at any moment of any time. And I can see that we're naturally moving into the segue of find the funny, which is how we end up. Damn so I laugh at moments like that where I'm like, literally as she's saying it, it's like you know the triggers are driving by kind of thing you know. But how, where do you find the funny? I mean, this can be just like who your favorite community is right now. The last time you laughed so hard, you know your stomach hurt like does humor weave its way through all of this for you? I get the sense that you're like you know my people.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, humor definitely does Eleanor? and I talk about this all the time. We were just at the National Alliance for Children's Grief Conference and there was this woman there and she said she sort of said it's something that was like the tiniest of jokes and she was like I'm sorry, i hope that I was like, oh girl, you could not, even if you tried make a joke that would like ever offend us in the grief space.
Speaker 2:Because I think you know again, i can slam Freud earlier for saying that we have to talk about our feelings when we don't. But Freud also said that humor was the most advanced and developed of all the defense mechanisms.
Speaker 1:And Freud loved me, look at me.
Speaker 2:He used tons of humor himself, which I think, like is yeah, is just really is really critical. But I think for me, eleanor and I, you know, one of the things that we both love are like any sort of and maybe this is because we worked in the, we worked in the end of life sort of death space like as well, and in hospital settings, but the books, all my friends are dead and all my friends are still dead.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you know these books, but they are these hilarious little cartoon books that sit in our office and I will like, if for any reason I'm having a bad day, i would sometimes just like flip through and they will crack me up, and I sometimes get self-conscious when they're sitting out. If we're doing like a workshop or a training or something like that, i'm like maybe we should have put those away. But you know, so I think those like those to me are just something that like, specifically, for whatever reason, popped to mind when you said it. But I think you know the other thing is that I just this industry is makes me laugh a lot. I mean, I think that there is just like a lot of weird pretend there's a lot of weird like language, like there are just things.
Speaker 2:There are people of very dramatic language around things And I'm like we can just talk about grief like normal humans, like we don't have to use like fancy language and pastel tones and tone, you know, i don't know tilt our heads all the time, like, and so I honestly like part of it is just like I am like what is going on, like can't we just be humans? So that actually is the other thing that in a weird way, makes me laugh a lot, like I will look at something and I'll be like why did we make something so simple, so complicated?
Speaker 2:Like we used all this like terminology and stuff like that And I have it happens in all parts of the grief space, like the National Funeral Directors Convention. It's like a 6,000 person funeral directors conference And you go there and you're like, oh God, funeral directors have their own like weird lingo and all their own weird stuff And I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just that phenomenon to me That sounds like a comedy. Gold mine actually 6,000 funeral directors in one place. Oh my gosh, i gotta go, just to go.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, i'm so calm about that And I just pro-tip it's in Vegas this coming year.
Speaker 1:So if you're gonna go to one, The real mix funeral directors and Vegas is fine.
Speaker 2:I highly recommend you go to one in Vegas, because I've seen it in Philly and in Baltimore And if I can't even imagine how next level it will be in Vegas, because it is just you walk in and there are just like it's like caskets as far as the eye can see, and then it's herses, like you're on a car show room of all the different, like herses and all the stuff that they sell in funeral homes, like all the any memorial item you could ever imagine is there.
Speaker 2:It is like it is. I mean, the first time I went there I must have looked like a deer in the headlights, because I was like I've only ever been to like therapy conferences and hospice conference like, which are a very different vibe. I was just like, whoa, this is all these funeral directors, more men in suits than you'll see anywhere. So I highly recommend it, just for this You wanna find the funny kids?
Speaker 1:go to the National Theater Directors Conference in Vegas. I think that actually sounds like I'm pretty sure I could get a book or a TV pitch out of just being one weekend there. I'm pretty sure something will come.
Speaker 2:You unquestionably could. I think I can assure you that you definitely could. It is, you know all it's. I don't think it's every, even outside death right, like any industry. Like you know people who work in like pool sales or who work in like you know you just, you just know. Like everybody creates their own little like world and their little language and their little thing. And sometimes when you walk into one of those bubbles and you're just like what is going, on here. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:Fascinating especially coming at it from your perspective. All right, well, I can tell I could keep you here all day, but I won't. Where can people find you guys?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they can find us at what'syourgriefcom, and then all of our social medias are just at what'syourgrief, and then we also have a book called What's Your Grief, so we can make it very easy What's your grief all around.
Speaker 1:What's your grief all around And for anybody listening, do give them a follow and the resources are insanely, insanely helpful. So thank you for all of that And thanks for being a friend who gets it. I love these conversations where you just can tell right away we're gonna get into it, but we're gonna laugh, we're gonna find the middle and do what we do As the music plays us out. One word for how you're feeling, to check out, i'll go first, so you have the last word. I'm gonna say connected, i'll throw it to you.
Speaker 2:Hmm, I'm excited. I have such as like have all those feelings where I'm excited to go into the rest of the day.
Speaker 1:I love that. Have a great day. Thank you so much. Sure Well Grief Club. That's the show. If you enjoyed it, please let us know by liking and leaving review. This will help as many people who may need what we're talking about find it the fastest, remember to honor the journey And when that gets tough, find the funny.
